WARNING: Counterfeit Cels

Hey betsuni,

You see, this is where there is a bit of a gray area. According to a reference guide (you can also check out Wikipedia, which also shows some great references and guides to other texts), Generation One includes all series from 1984-1994, and this includes the Japanese series of Headmasters (1987), Masterforce (1988), and Victory (1989), and later the single episode of Zone (1990), which ended the animated G1 series while the comics continued to 1994. So, from 1984 - 1994, this era was referred to as "Generation One" according to many arguments. "Generation Two" is the term referred to the re-release of the original 1984-1986 series, and if I remember correctly, that G2 series was released in the US around 1993-1995 (you can get a quick reference on Wikipedia). I remember watching the show on TV during the 90's and they actually called themselves G2.

So, a Masterforce cel of Optimus Prime/Ginrai from 1988 would still technically fall under the G1 series. I did not see the auction, but based on what you just mentioned, the auction as "G1 Optimus Prime" would still be considered accurate. In fact, the toy itself released in the US in 1988/1989 was called "Powermaster Optimus Prime", which, I was told is the equivalent to Japanese Ginrai from Masterforce (if this is incorrect, please do let me know, but this is what it reads on the box of my toy). I was looking again at my old tapes from Masterforce that I bought about 14-15 years ago (I was a big Transformers fan and collected a lot of the Japanese Transformers toys back then), and the series was dubbed in English with reference to Optimus Prime (Japanese Ginrai) and released in Europe.

So, in conclusion, I do not feel that referring to that cel as 'G1' Prime (or Ginrai) is inaccurate.

Star-phoenix,

I really appreciate your feedback on everything covered so far. The more the better. But i'm going to have to disagree with a couple things you stated though. :(


First off, you mentioned you didn't get to see the screencaps for the cel. Here's a link to some pics I made of the Snake Eyes cel when it was still showing in GoG's gallery.

http://s1131.photobucket.com/albums/m554/maceanimation/

The screencap is showing below the cel of course. You can plainly see the armbands,belts and visor are black in the screencap and light gray in the cel. I actually own a couple cels of Snake Eyes. Plus I have seen a few others over the years as well. I have never seen him with gray belts,etc.,. They've always been black on both the show and in all the cels i've seen. So I think that rules out the possible change of color in the screencap due to the original animation being " digitally remastered, re-released, etc". The color in the screencap is totally correct.


And i'm going to have to disagree with you on what is generally refered to as G1. The only thing that is actually refered to as Transformers G1 is anything officialy made and released for the original wave of toys in the United States by Hasbro. That includes the Sunbow animated series,the toys and the comics and etc.,. Yes the japanese cartoons/toys continued the series but they are not refered to as G1 since they are not owned by Hasbro. They are Non-canon. The "G1" term is strictly a Hasbro thing. All of the japanese made cartoons and toys are owned by Takara. I've been to enough Botcons over the years so trust me on this. If you need further proof just check out the wikipedia link below. It says it all in the first paragraph. I'll even paste it here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformers_G1

Quote: Transformers: Generation 1 (also known as Generation One or G1) was the original Transformers toy line that produced from 1984 to 1991 and actually lasted longer than the G1 1980s television series itself.[1] The series was originally simply called The Transformers until the relaunch in 1993 was titled Transformers: Generation 2, after which fans applied the name Generation 1 (later made official by Hasbro) as a method of separating the different Transformers eras. Often the word "The" is omitted from the name.


So that cel of Takara's God Ginrai that GoG listed on ebay as a Hasbro G1 Prime cel was most definitely listed INCORRECTLY. As are most of the japanese TF cels in your gallery. (you need to change those) ;)


As a side note I think you should also be aware that those dubbed versions of the japanese cartoons that you are refering to were never officially released/made by either Hasbro or Takara. Those were fan dubs. If I remember correctly they were privately done by a small group of fans and like literally five or six guys did all of the voices.
Actually,"shout Factory" which currently holds the release rights for the transformers cartoons just announced plans to "officially" release all of the japanese series as well. I don't know if they are dubbing them or releasing them with the original japanese audio though. Just so you know.

Dear Mace,

Thank you very much for posting the screen cap regarding the Snake Eyes. Unfortunately, I am having trouble seeing the close up of the screen cap you posted in order to make an accurate judgment of the item in question.

Here is what I do see: I see the color as being darker on the bands and the cel on a very dark background, but the screencap is very fuzzy and too small to properly examine. When I was looking at the other Snake Eyes cel (the one in question), it definitely shows very evident age wear for a 25 year old cel (especially the line fading), which is why it looks like an original to me. I have never seen reproduction cels that have line fading as this cel does. That is why I cannot conclude this as being a repro/fake cel. But, here are other questions I have.

Is the screencap from a digitally remastered DVD or the original 1980's release from a video?? The reason I ask is in many cases, when a series/film gets digitally remastered and released onto media such as DVD, the colors have sometimes appear different. I have seen this a lot in Disney films.

The other thing I am wondering is if this is indeed the exact screen cap of the specific cel of Snake Eyes?? I have never collected GI Joe before, so not familiar with their production techniques. But, I have collected from Disney production artwork and it is a common practice for the Disney studios to "reuse" scenes and drawings for their film shorts in order to save time and expenses.

The other thing I am wondering is if it could be lighting effects when they initially snapped the cel or use of correction layer for the color. So, the possibilities are definitely there.

In reference to the term "G1", I am very sorry, but I still have to disagree with you regarding the term G1 (this is why I mention it as a gray area). Below are a few of the points:

The quote you gave: "The series was originally simply called The Transformers until the relaunch in 1993 was titled Transformers: Generation 2, after which fans applied the name Generation 1 (later made official by Hasbro) as a method of separating the different Transformers eras."
The term G1 did not come into effect until 1993 which was after all the releases of the US and Japanese lines in question. And Hasbro made it officially "G1", but does not necessarily exclude Japanese Takara either.

If you read further on in the Wikipedia link that you posted, you can also see what toy lines were included as "Generation One". Here is what they say:

"1988
Transformers continued on despite smaller support and still managed to introduce a plethora of new characters. New Headmaster and Targetmaster characters were introduced, but the new driving forces for the line were the Pretenders and Powermasters (which featured the return of Optimus Prime)."

All of these toys came out after the Takara release of the same toys. The cartoons Headmasters and Masterforce featured these characters and toyline. And as you mentioned, the term "G1" was not coined until 1990's when Hasbro re-released the line calling them Generation Two.

But, you also know that Takara has the original rights to Transformers and Hasbro only had the permission to distribute them in America and due to licensing issues had to change the name from Ginrai to Powermaster Optimus Prime in the toy-line.

So, with that said G1 Powermaster Prime for the US release is the same toy featured on Masterforce Ginrai/Godginrai. I have heard both arguments between the term G1 in reference to only being used as a US term, but, also included the original Japanese markets (hence the gray area). Since the G1 was appointed for the toys up to 1991, and the Japanese continued releasing their series throughout those times promoting the exact toys that were also released in the US, I do think it is quite reasonable, and very common for collectors to refer to both lines (Japanese and American toy versions) as being "G1".
So, referring to the Headmasters/Masterforce/Victory as being part of the G1 era, I still feel is within reason. But, it is okay to disagree with this. Many Japanese toy collectors will argue this because Takara is the original owner of Transformers and hence are the real #1. So, the collector's arguments are why refer to Powermaster Prime as the G1 while the exact toy in Japan that was released by Takara before the Powermaster Prime was released in US later?
Also, here is some more reference from Wikipedia regarding the "Generation One TV animated series:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Transformers_TV_series

Here, you can also see they refer to the Japanese series as being listed as part of "Generation One".

But, again, thank you very much for providing us the screen caps and the information to the Wikipedia site. Now we are able to make judgments based on our own accord.

still no response from guardians of good?what gives?

I've never seen color correction layers on any Marvel/Sunbow cels. They didn't seem to do a lot of extra layers as animation short cuts like Filmation would. Each movement was a new cel, not a new layer. My best guess is if something was mispainted, they'd simply have re-copied the drawing and painted a new cel.

With line fading, if this is true, these cels are reproductions, then the person faking them is an animation professional. They have access to the equipment used to photocopy lines on cels. I've seen line fading on cels only a few years old. I know the lines were a problem on some cartoons when the cels were made because of the cheap ink they were using. IMO with GI Joe and other Sunbow cels, the process used to put the lines on the cels is what will decide if they fade or not, not the age or handling.

A few of the cels I'm questioning have almost entirely brown lines. I'm even wondering if perhaps the lines were xeroxed on that color. How else better to fake a cel is old?