the fancel question

i never thought that i'd see the day when something like fan cels became as touchy a subject as something like abortion, but i guess it goes with the territory when cel collecting. as a fan cel artist myself, i have to say that i enjoy fan cels ;). but all seriousness aside, i actually purchased my first fan cel from another artist, and i appreciate it's artistic quality just as much as i would the real cel.

i personally think it's ok for a fan cel artist to make cels from a screen cap; just take the fan cel that i purchased for example:

http://aurora.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_info.asp?ItemID=65668

i'm in college still, have living expenses, don't make a lot of money, etc etc (insert whining here), so i really can't afford to invest in a production cel from cowboy bebop at the moment, if ever really. and i know there are people that will wait and wait and wait for that day when they can afford one, but that person isn't me right now, so when i saw the fan cel i nabbed it. but my only problem with the fan cel is that *she didn't sign it*.

this is where i think it gets a little tricky; unless the cel is an original work of my own or from a CG show, i will always sign the cel under the paint. if you're going to cut the paint off to try and sell it as a production cel, you really can't do that. and it would take a phenomenal amount of work to scrape the paint off, remove my india-ink signature and then paint it again the same color. i don't like it when people sell fan cels that they haven't signed somewhere on the image, because like others have said, what's to stop someone from slapping sequence numbers on the top and selling it as a production cel?

another thing that i do as a fan cel artist is use Dura-Lar 9"x12" acetate, and i paint almost all the way to the edges of the cel. you can't punch holes in the cel without going through the paint all three times, and the acetate is not the same size as normal production cels and cannot be trimmed generally again because of the painting all the way to the edge, you'd be trimming the image itself.

i think that the responsibility of the prevention of resale of fan cels belongs solely to the fan cel artist. if you can't take the time to do all that you can to fool-proof your fan cels, then you shouldn't make them. there are going to be people out there who try to sell fan cels off as production cels, but most of the time it's japanese made fan cels or fan cels that they made themselves, not fan cels that the main artists in this community produce (niisan, gwen, eyegrey, hyperenity, etc.), although i could be wrong.

seaira

Jeez...I can't believe ppl even voted that fan cels make them angy, and are irresponsible.

Animation cels are works of art, and if you're a smart buyer...You will check the product out before you buy it...This mean...Finding out if it's real or not. The person who doesn't take time to do this and gets duped...Hey...Sorry...It was your own fault. No one is gonna fork over millions of dollars for a *supposed* Monet...You're gonna bet your ass they have Monet experts checking the thing out b4 they buy it...

For those who do get duped...It was their own fault...When it comes down to it...You were buying the cel for the art...If you were buying it for the resale value...Then you obviously have cel knowledge, and shoulda known better if you got taken advantage of. Otherwise...If you bought it...Might as well suck it down and admire it for the art.

If art is sold as fraudulent...Labeling it as actual production when it is in fact, not...Then those people should be prosecuted...Just like all other people doing the same practices in this country and across the globe.

I, personally, *LOVE* fan cels. All of the artists have been very professional, and are in no way trying to sell me something that was actually used in production.

I also dislike people who say fan cel artists are ripping off companies, by using their characters for their own financial gain, they're not a true anime fan, etc...When ppl say you're not a true anime fan...I just wanna punch them in the face(*and most likely would if they said it to my face). Art is a medium where everyone benefits from each other. Copying styles only helps to serve the artist in their own style development. If the artist happens to make a miniscule profit off of it...So what. Being critical of them is only harming progress in something that could end up inspiring others, etc. You're not gonna tell Warhol that he's not a true artist cause he didn't design the Campbell's soup can label, are you?!?!

I believe if a fan cel artist isn't making cels for sale as actual production...Then it's all good. It's the ppl who market them as the real thing are the ones we need to get rid of. We can't stop them all, but we can try through being an active community...Which I believe we are pretty good at doing.

And...The post-production cels...There is no difference between them and fan cel artists as far as I can tell...They take a drawing...Make a copy...And paint it...The cel was never used in the actual production...And is Rilezu actually the original production company doing this? I've never been told they are...If that's true...Where is the difference?

OK...I've blabbled enough...Everyone is gonna have different opinions on the matter...And yeah...This thread could get nasty...Cause...Like it was said in an earlier post...This spawns as much heated debate as abortion does...*sheesh*

I should have been more specific. I meant fan cels based on already existing properties.

The "irresponsible" choice wasn't meant to generalize, it was meant as "are we relying too much on the honor system?" In a worst case scenario, you'd have either new fancel artists who might be irresponsible in not differentiating their works from production art or shady fancel artists -- maybe even an art institute undergrad somewhere short on cash -- with a set of curves, a steady hand, and some patience.

The few who do it right now do it for fun. It's not worth $40 for 5+ hours of work if you wanted to do it for money. You can make almost as much flipping burgers.

The good news is, there's not much money in ebay fancels. But does it devalue the rest of the market? If someone makes twenty fan cels from a sketch you own, does that devalue the matching cel when you decide to sell your "real" copy? Isn't that, in a way, irresponsible to the rest of the cel collecting community? Or are people who buy fan cels and people who buy production cels mutually exclusive? (meaning only one or the other)

I think part of the mystique of this whole hobby -- and art in general -- is context. You own one-of-a-kind moments in time from your favorite shows. That is the pitch that in some part has made you buy your first cel. People don't collect paint, they collect characters. Hundreds of amazing cel illustrations go unsold daily simply because we look for characters we like, not just a good illustrations. Cel collecting is buying for context over technical ability, almost by definition. Isn't it a little strange (dangerous?) to let this part of the hobby get diluted so easily?

I was about to use Warhol as an example. It would have went something like this: If I were to reproduce my own silkscreen of Warhol's soup can -- it's a relatively non-technical piece of art, kinda like most cels -- and sell it/give it away/distribute it, does that make my reproduction irresponsible? Affordable? Justified?

http://www.jssgallery.org/Other_Artists/Andy_Warhol/Campbells_Soup_Can.htm

Again, let's ignore the fact that I'd get my pants sued off. Yes, the analogy applies here, too. It is quite illegal to be copying someone's character and putting it on eBay. However, if someone could manage a fan-made animation with Inuyasha, Madoka Ayukawa, and Sakura Kinomoto telling dirty jokes in Japanese -- would I be able to say this person is not an honest fan? Of course not. That person would be my hero. I would so buy that. Still horribly illegal, but definitely genius.

I don't think I'm really totally one way or the other. It's not your average fan cel artist's fault that there are bad people in the world, but it is certainly their problem... and ours. It's just not obvious to me that us collector types have seen the potential for Bad Things that this trend might bring.

Controversy! Yeah! Controversy is healthy! (Really, I mean that.)

I myself don't own any fancels, and I really don't have much interest in them if there are production cels availible. But there are some incredible original fan works on acitate out there that I would consider. BUT I am of the camp that all fan art should be signed by the artist on the front where it is visible! Besides, if it is a great work take credit! I also have been toying with the idea to have fancels done from some of my sketches from CG shows.

I never gave fancels much thought before this thread, I didn't want anything to do with them. Now I have some real reservations, especially with them showing up more and more on ebay and YJ. I just saw some fan-art go for about $400 and I'm not sure if the buyer knows that it ain't real. That is the kind of stuff I can see making all kind of collectors mad - production and fan art alike. They should be in a catagory of their own, NEVER should the two mix. Just so every one knows what they are getting. Selling and re-selling.

Just my two cents.