American animation cels

Hello Ted,
You are very right in the fact that most gallery sites are very bad and should be upgraded and updated more than they are.

As far as the economics of this hobby, I think you are overlooking one important fact and that is production cels are no longer being made and therefore they are getting rarer by the day and never will be at the level they were years ago unlike comics that are still being made.
I have seen the ups and downs of this hobby for a long time and I understand what flooding the market does to the prices,But you need to understand that as more folks all over the world get into this hobby the market for cels will go up in time,I'm not in this hobby for the short run and I'm willing to weather both the ups and downs of the market.
I do understand that the prices have to be kept to a level that collectors can afford or they will stop buying,This is a fact that Disney and Warner Bro's learned the hard way,They both priced themselfs out of the collectable production cels market by charging so high a price that the average collector could not afford there product, So they tryed to do a cheaper version with limited editions and the like and got stuck with so much artwork they could not move it all and there stores all closed and they flooded the market with so much limited stuff that there franchise sellers could not move the stuff they had bought from them,This is why you will see folks on ebay selling the limited editions way cheaper than the galleries can,They were able to buy there stock way cheaper than the franchise stores bought them because the studios auctioned off there remaining stock in huge lots for pennys on the dollar and the franchise holders were stuck with the art that they had bought for the wholesale prices and can not lower prices or they will lose money.
I would not recommend anyone invest in huge amounts of cel art to sell in the short run but as far as a investment for the future it is a very good bet that prices will go up as the remaining stocks dry up and they get harder to find,How much they go up is yet to be known, As with anything that is invested you must be willing to weather the ups and downs of the market and understand that if you pay to much for something you can lose money let me repeat you can lose money if you are not very careful!
Buying and selling animation art has always been a funny biz to be in,All I can say is do lots of research and make sure you know what you are doing before you get into it because you can get burned real fast.
If you have a huge brick and mortar shop and spend 100s of 1000s dollars on stock you can not move fast you have done the wrong thing and it will come back to bite you in the future,I do not have huge store costs, overhead, and my storage costs me no money so I am in a little bit different situation than most dealers and can hold out for better times if need be, Like I said I'm in it for the long haul.
But that being said I still think that investing in animation art if you can get it cheap enough will pay off in the end you just have to have enought time for the market to come around and can not be in a hurry to sell.If your in it for the fast buck investment in animation art is not the way to go.

This is only my opinion and will not be everyones,I base this on all the things I have seen happen in the past and it has worked for me,Will it work for all?who knows time will tell!

Ted I am with you on the fact dealers need to learn that trying to make a killing on there artwork runs new folks out of the hobby because the prices are to high and new collectors will not pay the higher costs simply because they do not have that much money just starting out,I have found that most newbies to the hobby are in the age group 17 to 24 and most of these folks don't have large amounts of money to work with,I try to put myself in there shoes when I price my stuff and try to adjust the prices to there level of income, I have never charged what I would call retail prices I don't see the need to charge so much that I only sell a few items, I have found that if I price my stuff at a lower price I will sell more and therefore this makes more sense to me, this also has the benefit of having happy customers that come back to buy more in the future,I know not all dealers are of the same mind as me and most are in it for the fast buck and I can understand there way of thinking but it's not my way of thinking.
I'm not only a dealer but a collector also so I see both sides of the issue and can feel for the buyers.

It's my hope that new folks to the hobby can take what you and myself have said here and make a little better choice on what they do and how they look at investment in animation art, This is what needs to be said to help others out and can be a benefit to all. There will always be more than one way of looking at something and talking about it is always a good thing.

Ted you wrote:
[quote]The general rule in collectable markets should be "buy what you like". Big seller speculation hurts supply and raises costs for buyers, but as long as that kind of speculation doesn't run too wide (amongst speculators) or deep (in any given speculator, in amount or time) that's an acceptable cost for encouraging people to source material in the first place. Buyers need to punish sellers who speculate too deeply by not buying from them when possible (difficult in a monopoly situation), however, or else speculation will tend to increase and deeply harm the market. If a seller knows another seller is engaging in large scale hoarding, they should bring all their market forces to bear against the other seller because they're threatening the long term stability and survivability of the market. [/quote]

While I am with you on the "Buy What You Like" rule, I'm not with you on the "punish sellers" that were smart enough to buy and put away a good investment when they see it.
I bought a huge amount of silver when it was at 3.75ounce it's now at 9.75 should I be punished for this if I sold it now?
Animation art is way different than stocks,commoditys and such, Animation art will always have a market because it is no longer being made and therefore is a limited item that will always have a buyer for it. Market prices will find there level on there own thats why it's called a investment,it's in hopes that the price will go up in the future.
And by telling buyers to punish sellers who speculate on the future you not only bring down there prices but you lower the worth of the buyers collections at the same time this is the knives edge and it can cut both partys if this is done, Price busting is a thing of the past and should be because it hurts all.
As for survivability of the market I don't think you have to worry to much about that as everyday new collectors come on the market and with the Asian market in China now opening up and all the new collectors there this hobby is about to get hit hard for cel art and this is a good thing for everyone because this will bring out all the artwork that was put away and put more artwork on the market for all us collectors.

I for one hope everyone finds what they are looking for in this hobby and at a good price they can afford.

Roy

I wanted to add that a cel is only as valuable as the show it represents. Dealers can look at cels as a commodity, but for a collector, unless you have a connection with the show and a real nostalgia for the era it represents, then a cel is just a painted piece of acetate.

If you're going to speculate on cels for an investment, then you have to look at the shows that will build fan bases that continue into adulthood, not just recognizable characters or well-known shows.

The big animation art galleries only care about
cels from shows they've heard of. They think Smurfs cels should go for $300 because everyone's seen Smurfs. But no one's gonna pay that. Yet they deam shows they've never heard of as worthless.

What I don't understand is why certain studios like Disney and Warner destroyed cels because they didn't think people would buy them. I heard Disney destroyed a lot of the Gummi Bears cels, maybe Roy would know more about that. But it makes no sense. Maybe Disney couldn't have sold Gummi Bears cels for as much as say a cel from Gargoyles, but they could have atleast save a few.

Collecting cels has changed significantly since I started collecting in 1992. The internet has made it a lot easier to find dealers, eBay and YJ have helped create a market for cels that never would have been sold. And sites like Rubberslug help educate collectors that cels do exist, and create more collectors to begin searching for cels from their favorite shows.

I don't think of cels as investments but as art and an amazing opportunity to own a small piece of my favorite shows. There's no guarantee that a cel's value will increase, a stock pile of cels from the same show can show up on eBay tomorrow and tank the value. As long as you love the cels you have, it doesn't matter.

Kett

Hey Roy.
I don't think the end of the use of production cels is as important as you think it is to the future market (at least not overall; there are specific elements of the market that it does specifically effect, namely large continuing franchises; aka, no more Bugs Bunny cels will make older Bugs Bunny cels more valuable as newly interested people who only understand colorful images directly reflecting what's on the screen will drive up the market disproportionately for the continuing franchise). You seem to be implying that the lack of production cels in the future will be driving up the cost of older cels. But, as Kett brought up, show popularity with collectors is a primary motivating element. So, while Inuyasha has stopped producing production cels, leading to an increase in the value of the cels from the part of the show that produced cels, that's not going to hold true for the next big thing; there are no production cels to go up in value. Now, someone who likes the next big thing isn't going to be interested in an Inuyasha (or Smurfs, or All Dogs Go To Heaven, or Fantasia, or Evangelion, etc.) cel because of the next big thing, they're going to be interested in production art from the next big thing; genga, douga, etc. If they want a production cel from it, then too bad; if they want a cel from it, they can go the Rilezu route. Hell, the one of one non-production cel with a production drawing has been around for at least 10 years. The WB Stores were pimping it with Chuck Jones materials back in the day, and various people have been doing it with more recent materials like Clone Wars and Justice League (at shockingly high prices).

There will never be a new golden age Warner Brothers cel; but the thing is, that's been the case for the last 50 years. No "classic" Smurfs cels for (20?) years. A '50s EC comic is not as unique as '50s Warner Brothers cel (or even a Smurfs cel), but the possibility to lessen each's uniqueness by more being made has been closed for just as long. That's what makes a collectible market. There are plenty of collectibles that are no longer made, and plenty of them haven't increased in value anywhere close to, say, inflation. Take a Roman imperial denarius, a soldier's pay for a day. It's been collectable since at least the middle ages. You can buy many examples for under $20 a piece. 2 grams of silver outside of the collectible value of the coin, collectable for the last 600 years, if it had been invested to add a modest 1% annually of its amount of silver in a compound fashion over the last 600 years, would now be worth more than 780 grams of silver. That would be, what? More than $200 in silver? The value of denarii in a market that has maintained popularity for hundreds of years hasn't performed all that well. Collectable markets just aren't all that reliable.

Your point about the studio store limited editions: My experience observing the WB limited editions was that they were not significantly cheaper than the production art (at least of the current shows). A look at my gallery will show an interest in BTAS. Their Batman limted editions (lowest common denominator claptrap by and large, with three or four exceptions in the flat art, and excepting the maquettes) were priced about the same as the production art (excluding production cels with OBGs). WB also has not exited the market; while the WB Stores are gone, they're now just using the Cartoon Network online store as their venue.

On speculation: I did not suggest everyone who speculates should be sanctioned by buyers. As I mentioned, a certain degree of speculation is an acceptable and probably unavoidable aspect of the market. You seem to take issue with the idea that it is positive to organize collectors to sanction predatory hoarders whose actions inordinately artificially inflate market prices and create the havoc I described previously. You called it "price busting", and invoke the idea that removing artificial price inflation by one or a few monopsimic hoarders will deflate the value of individual collections.

However, I'm going to point out the obvious counter example to that stand that I've already brought up; namely, the near monopoly on new art from WB related shows embodied in the WB Store/CN Network Store pricing structure compared to the open market of eBay. Non-WB branded WB sources have opened up on eBay, however the best quality cels have largely remained solely sourced by the CN store and the affiliated galleries, and the prices have remained just about as high as ever in those venues. However, the price in those stores does not reflect the value of a collection on the open market. That value can be found on eBay. WB Store/Cartoon Network sourced materials do go for more (generally) than other sourced similar material (it does tend to be higher quality, tends to have matched photo backgrounds, is standardly nicely framed much of the time, etc.), however, it generally sells for a small portion of its gallery cost. The value of the monopsimy to the monopsimists does not translate to collectors; collectors have little choice but to deal in an open market.

Another criticism I have of the position that "price busting" harms the value of collectors' collections is that it ignores the not strictly commercial aspects of a collection. In general, collectors want to obtain material for their collections. You could argue that hoarding material allows people to not have to buy everything all at once, or that it allows future collecotrs to collect which they could not do if material was all released and absorbed into collections. However, that ultimately leads to higher costs endemic to the monopsimy, as opposed to material being released into an efficient market in a short period of time, where it can naturally cycle through in user to user sales. The idea that spiraling prices will encourage hoarders to disgorge some of their hoards is probably true, but I seem to have trouble accepting this as a good thing compared to a situation where the same material was available at market value without demand being artificially inflated by hoarders.

Additionally, as the hoarding will tend to lead to price crashes, any boost to the value of individual collections from a monopsimic market will tend to disappear and leave a vandalized marketplace in its wake.

Hi Guys,
This is the first time I've ever posted on this site or any site. I've been reading several posts regarding bad animation gallery websites and the high prices of the cels. I wanted to add the little insight that I have to the discussion.
I started collecting BTAS and STAS cel while working for the WB about 9 years ago. I purchased my first framed cel from the WB studio store for $380 (employee discount). I thought that was alot of money at the time. The studio stores closed shortly after and the price of the cels has almost doubled through the galleries and I know why. Clampett studio now controls all of the WB archived cels. They assumed because of the limited amount of cels that were left to sell that this would make them more valuable and they could make a larger profit. All galleries that you buy from sign a contract with Clampett to sell the cels for the same price ergo: 1 charater cels ($400-425), 2 charater cels ($500-525) etc. The galleries have no say in this matter.
Buyers may have noticed through the years that the same cels show up the many different websites. The cels are on consignment. The galleries don't purchase the cels outright and return them after a show like comic-con ends. Which is a good thing because most of the time the cels don't sell because the pricing is much to high. This is not the gallery owners fault. Their hands are tied. So please keep this in mind when blaming them for the cost. They're just trying to make a living. Which is been made even harder with buyers like myself selling some of our older cels on ebay.
What the gallery owners and buyers understand is that the price of a production is inflated. I've purchased cels for as much as $1200 (OBG). I'm well aware now that I'll be lucky to see half of that money again if I ever decide to sell that cel in the future. I believe unless the cel is a "must have" piece of art, purchase all of your cels on ebay. Why pay a small fortune for something that doesn't have half the value it's priced at?
I've also noticed that the price of cels on ebay has plummeted in the last 6 years. I believe this will only increase in the future. So if you think the stuff you have is your golden ticket I think you should think again. Right now most of the episodes of BTAS and STAS have been released on DVD. So you would think that everyone would be jazzed about buying a piece of the show and the cels would be selling on ebay like hot cakes. Wrong. The prices are still down and will remain so.
One major thing that Clampett and investment collectors didn't forsee, most collectors of BTAS and STAS are getting older. Our priorities are changing. I can't spend $500 on a cel when my kids and family's needs come first. And the younger collectors can't afford to spend that kind of money or have no interested in a show that started when they were under 10 years old. I'm not going into my piggy bank to purchase Flintstone cels am I?
My advice to anyone that's into this hobby is to purchase what makes you happy, don't spend to much money and remember this is not an investment. It's fun. Unless the art has a signature that says Van Gogh or Picasso, it's not an investment it's just a purchase. Invest in realestate not animation art. It's a lot safer just not as much fun.
-Ron

Ron:
The gallery owners need to accept some blame for the situation. If they refused Clampett's terms, pressure would be put on Clampett to lower prices; Clampett would have to do the legwork to sell on their crappy terms themselves, and would eventually lower prices to maximize profit currently being consumed by a broken system. Customers need to accept some blame as well, to the extent that market aware customers buy the stuff and encourage dealers and the pricing. When I was buying from the WB Stores, eBay was only a developing marketplace, with the only other options being galleries with even higher prices and the occasional indie dealer at conventions (and there was virtually no BTAS stuff at my local cons). A secondary market probably existed on eBay at the time I was buying, but eBay's penetration only really got to the right levels near the end of the WB Stores' life.

The trouble with the gallery pricing nowadays is that it leaves most actual collectors essentially unacknowledged. People aware of the open market (ebay) know that official pricing is far more than market price. So, while perfect wishlist pieces might be able to tempt a knowledgeable buyer at official prices, knowledge of the market really raises the bar on what someone will need presented to be willing to pay official prices. Thus, collectors are out of the running.

So who does that leave as the intended market? There are two main demographics, I think. The (much) smaller of these is the rich collector who will simply pay the asking price because they want the piece and the price level is not a meaningful barrier. Let's hope they need space for it and put another cel up on eBay to make some room; if they do, then they're subsidizing the market for the rest of us, I suppose. The much bigger demographic is, I think, people who don't know squat about the market. They walk into a gallery, see everything priced at $400 (for the bottom of the barrel) and up, and assume that's the real market price. They've grown tired of Dogs Playing Poker, think they like cartoons, and need something new for their den. Thus a sale is born.

Now, if they just did that with their crappy limited editions, printing up however many weird new look Bugs Bunny in a Tampa Ray baseball uniform being hunted by Dick Cheney on the set of the Wizard of Oz with a Kevin Conroy voice chip they think they can sell and slapping "R@RE! L!M!TED! Only $900!" on them, I wouldn't care (well, if they do that, I want a cut, or I'll get all Art Buchwald on them). The limited editions are a manufactured market by their nature. But taking this approach with production cels is deleterious to the market of our hobby for all the reasons I've given before. It's keeping good material from an efficient market in the hopes that a rich collector or someone who is essentially a rube with some disposable cash will happen across it. And I think that's bad for the hobby.

(By the way, I've always loved your gallery. The number of OBGs you have for BTAS is soul crushing...)